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V8 Midget Engine.


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15 replies to this topic

#1
larryo

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biggrin.gif From all the posts on www.indianaopenwheel.com it seems like the Suzuki V8 seems to be a very
interesting engine.

1) But from a purely legal standpoint, which USAC makes very clear, the engine is legal as long
as it meets the requirements.

a) For the V8 it seem 2000 cc or 122 cubic inches seems to be the limit.

cool.gif So it seems using two 1000 cc engines in a "V" configuration will give you about 360 HP.

2) The next point is the hard one. Anybody has to be able to get these parts and be readily available for
all.

a) So the question seems to be how do you make the block for two, 1000 CC motors to mate
to.

cool.gif And who would make the crank. I think the rods is a no brainer, but the "V" block and the
the crank are the hard part.

3) Any ideas on how you would take two 1000 CC motor and mate them in a "V" configuration
and get a crank to drop into the block?

Thanks,

Larry "O" laugh.gif

#2
zerohunger

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Old news Larry!
Ron Hoettels of Sesco in Milwaukee Wisconsin did this 20 some years ago as did Mel Kenyon. Google Sesco V-8 and read all about it. Another guy in Wisconsin is building a V-8 based on the Habasuba (spelling?) motorcycle. Lots of money to invest in something that gets banned as soon as you start winning.

With today's computer controlled machine tools and design tools it isn't that difficult to build your own motor. The current Wisconsin built motor uses an aluminum block carved out of billet aluminum.

Keep in mind that Harry Miller & Fred Offenhauser built their stuff on machines found in the typical high school machine shop of the day. They made their own patterns too for local foundries to pour. No sissy computer stuff for them.

I design machinery for a living and have the greatest respect for anyone dedicated enough to pull off one of these projects. It just isn't the same as somebody building a V-4 on a bandsaw and a Bridgeport in 1964 though.

Chuck Schultz
Winfield, Illinois

#3
larryo

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laugh.gif Thanks Chuck Schultz,

That is just the information I wanted. I have some friends that wanted to build this new head.

But I ######ed them off, because I told them the head would have to be available for all.

They didn't like that one bit. They wanted to build a head that nobody else would have,

but I could throw out the idea that they should cast a 2.0 liter V8 block using all the parts

from two 1000 CC engines like the Hyabusa V8. I just didn't know if the Hyabusa was a 2.0

liter motor. I had this feeling it was bigger than that and thus illegal.

a) The person I have in mind use to be a owner for a championship BRMA(?) Midget team in 1985?

And he made the V8 casting for some Indy V8 engines. He makes all the castings out of wood.
Now, that is old school.

cool.gif We have so many CNC Mills around where I live it is mind boggling. Got to get one of these
cats to start think about making the mold or machining the mold for a V8 twin motorcylce
engine.


c) Might get a rude response from the idea from all my friends, but who knows if you got enough
people to invest in it or just one "big" one, Gene might make the mold. It only take money.
Who's got it?


Sincerely,

Larry "O' tongue.gif

#4
evile

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Larry,

Powertec Engineering out of the UK has already designed and is building a Hyabusa based V8. Powertec is the engine supplier to Radical Extreme Race Cars. I believe they had a booth at PRI two years ago. Here's a link to a flyer for the latest engines:

http://www.powertecr...s/v8_phase3.pdf

Unfortunately, I believe their engine's displacement will be too large for most midget sanctions. However, their smaller engine dynos in around 360hp. There is another manufacturer in the UK called RST that has a V8 based on Yamaha's R1.

#5
stretch

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I thought USAC rules state only six cylinders.

#6
larryo

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Hey Stretch,

Quotes from Rebone on the Indianaopenwheel.com message board:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) "Larry,

The midget V-8's are not only legal at the Chili Bowl, they are also currently legal for USAC at
120CID with a 4-valve OHC configuration. (90 deg. max V)"


(2) "The V-8 spec is actually an anomole in the USAC rulebook. When the V-8 stopped showing up at the
tracks, USAC basically stopped writing a spec for the motor. I believe Jackie Runyon was one of the
last one's running, Mel may also have been running one at the time. Anyone with a legal V-8 could show
up and run it in a USAC event under the last printed spec (120 CI)."


So there you have it ...lol!


Larry "O",

P.S. But I was wondering about puttin' two 1000 cc engines in series and making a straight 8?

What do you think about that idea?..LOL! I wonder if there is anything to be gained there? laugh.gif

#7
stretch

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It would be nice for USAC to be a little more flexible in thier rules. After reading, I get the feeling they (USAC) wants no homegrown inovation. Just store bought $30,000 competitors. Some people have more talent than money, and get penilized for it.

QUOTE(larryo @ Feb 21 2008, 01:42 PM) View Post

Hey Stretch,

Quotes from Rebone on the Indianaopenwheel.com message board:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) "Larry,

The midget V-8's are not only legal at the Chili Bowl, they are also currently legal for USAC at
120CID with a 4-valve OHC configuration. (90 deg. max V)"


(2) "The V-8 spec is actually an anomole in the USAC rulebook. When the V-8 stopped showing up at the
tracks, USAC basically stopped writing a spec for the motor. I believe Jackie Runyon was one of the
last one's running, Mel may also have been running one at the time. Anyone with a legal V-8 could show
up and run it in a USAC event under the last printed spec (120 CI)."


So there you have it ...lol!


Larry "O",

P.S. But I was wondering about puttin' two 1000 cc engines in series and making a straight 8?

What do you think about that idea?..LOL! I wonder if there is anything to be gained there? laugh.gif



#8
larryo

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smile.gif I don't know if what you are saying is true or not. But it seems the more innovation you have
the more they limit what you can do.

So the more exotic engines have less deplacement.

If you have cross flow heads you get more cubes and if you have more valves you get less cubes.

For each thing that enhances power, you get a penalty for it.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani huh.gif

#9
Elvis

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QUOTE(stretch @ Feb 21 2008, 11:39 AM) View Post

I thought USAC rules state only six cylinders.



USAC rules have NO BEARING.. on real Midget racing.. USAC rules have completely ruined Midget racing...

Only TWO RULES are needed in Midget racing.... NO ENGINE LIMIT and 8 inch wide tire...

solves ALL PROBLEMS... PERIOD.. END OF STORY....kaput... finish....

We ran 250 CUBIC INCH ALUMINUM BUICKS... ETC in the 70s.. and no one dominated.....

8 inch wide tires were max....

I did run a 225 CUBIC INCH Chevy 2 at Volusia one Feb.. Winter meet...

and blew the doors off keynon WITH HIS SUZUKI V8 ..yhahaha.. on the straights on a 1/2 mile...

It was one of those Ed Adair deals...

and i was in a 48 KK.... oh what fun.... Mel sounded like a fire engine siren when i went past.....

He came over later and looked at the ole KK .. but didnt say a thing......smile.gif

Took Les Scott several laps to finallly get around me in the Main in his VW.....hahahhahaha..

TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE CUBES ......!!! hohohoho

and they were running USAC rules....150 cubes.. oh hohohohoho

I fianlly hit the wall coming out of 4 and ended my fun for the nite.....

Ed Adair accused me of CHEATING...??? what.. .WHO... ME ????

Old 48 KK.. blew off their high dollor cars......smile.gif

probably about 1978 it was.. or up to 82 somewhere.. ...not sure... MEMORY disappearing...

any way.. it was the dabue ? of Kenyons V8 suzuki.... and i beat it....






#10
Elvis

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QUOTE(larryo @ Apr 8 2008, 01:59 PM) View Post

smile.gif I don't know if what you are saying is true or not. But it seems the more innovation you have
the more they limit what you can do.

So the more exotic engines have less deplacement.

If you have cross flow heads you get more cubes and if you have more valves you get less cubes.

For each thing that enhances power, you get a penalty for it.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani huh.gif



USAC SUCKS...

#11
pokieokie

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Ray Boyles in Missouri has built up a junkyard Ford V-8. It's respectable and a heckuva lot cheaper than starting from scratch. Biggest problem was building a mechanical injection setup for it....lots more complicated than casting a block. There's still a lot of R&D required, and who has the time and money to do all that, as someone observed, just to get banned if it works? By the way, wasn't the Canaday car a Suzuki V-8, or was that a V-6?

#12
larryo

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biggrin.gif Dear Pokie Okie,

I have a question for you. I'm trying to 'jury rig'/'redneck' a homegrown fuel injection manifold
for a Ron Shaver 360 Cu In, sprint car motor. I know the motor puts out 720 HP from the dyno
sheets. This is just all hypothetical....lol! Just for fun.

1) Couldn't I match up the latest and greatest Vic Edelbrock Drag Racing manifold for a 350
Cubic Inch Motor that came close to air flow characteristics needed for my Ron Shaver,
360 cubic in sprint car motor?

a) I'm sure a technical representative from Vic Edelbrock could help me out. I'm sure
he would call me an "OKIE". Let him know what you are trying to do, then just shoot yourself
to save emabarassment...lol!


2) Now, you got this drag racing 4 barrel Vic Edelbrock manifold sitting on top your Ron Shaver 720 HP,
360 cubic inch sprint car motor.

a) Now, what "Demon" alcohol carburetor fits the characteristics of this newly purchased
Vic Edelbrock Racing manifold?

cool.gif Gut everything in the carburetor except for the base plate and butterflies. The linkage
will bolt up as regular to the accelerator pedal. We just want the calibrated carburetor
body and matching baseplate and butterflies for approximate calibration to run our Ron
Shaver 360 cu in/720 HP sprint car motor on Injected alcohol.

c) Now drill each intake runner on the Vic Edelbrock 4 barrel manifold, to point each
injector as close as possible to same location as a standard Hilborn Injector Manifold
that came with the Ron Shaver Motor, at the intake valves. You want the injectors to
point at the valves as close possible to the Hilborn injection setup that came with the Ron
Shaver 360 cubic inch racing motor.


3) Now, tap the holes and install the same injectors that came with the Ron Shaver Racing setup.

a) Run the same fuel pump, bypasses and pills that came with the Ron Shaver Motor. Just want to get
as close as possible to a standard Hilborn setup, but now with a "Okie" 4 barrel manifold with intake
runners drilled for 8 mechanical fuel injectors. The manifold is only used because it comes
closest to the air characeteristics needed by the Ron Shaver Racing Motor. Vic Edelbrock helped me
pick it out. And the Demon Carb Air Base/butterfiles control the exact amount of air need for this
particular/matching as close as possible racing situation/application for Ron's 360 cu inch motor.

4)) Bolt the lastest Nascar air cleaner to the gutted Demon Carburetor body.


5) Start the engine on a dyno and start dialing in the fuel injection system.

I would think this same strange stategy could be used on any motor with good results if you didn't
want to cast in a brand new mechanical fuel injection manifold for your particular motor. Just use
the closeset 4 barrel racing intake manifold and modify the flow characteristics/port the manifold as
necessary/required. Same with the matching racing 4 barrel carburetor for this manifold, only
using the body and butterflies and linkage. All the mechanical fuel injection parts would have
to come from another/similar motor that roughly matches the breathing and fuel requirements of your
motor.


Larry "O" laugh.gif , Let's go racing! ph34r.gif

#13
HWORRELL

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QUOTE(larryo @ Sep 10 2008, 05:56 PM)  

biggrin.gif Dear Pokie Okie,

I have a question for you. I'm trying to 'jury rig'/'redneck' a homegrown fuel injection manifold
for a Ron Shaver 360 Cu In, sprint car motor. I know the motor puts out 720 HP from the dyno
sheets. This is just all hypothetical....lol! Just for fun.

1) Couldn't I match up the latest and greatest Vic Edelbrock Drag Racing manifold for a 350
Cubic Inch Motor that came close to air flow characteristics needed for my Ron Shaver,
360 cubic in sprint car motor?

a) I'm sure a technical representative from Vic Edelbrock could help me out. I'm sure
he would call me an "OKIE". Let him know what you are trying to do, then just shoot yourself
to save emabarassment...lol!


2) Now, you got this drag racing 4 barrel Vic Edelbrock manifold sitting on top your Ron Shaver 720 HP,
360 cubic inch sprint car motor.

a) Now, what "Demon" alcohol carburetor fits the characteristics of this newly purchased
Vic Edelbrock Racing manifold?

cool.gif Gut everything in the carburetor except for the base plate and butterflies. The linkage
will bolt up as regular to the accelerator pedal. We just want the calibrated carburetor
body and matching baseplate and butterflies for approximate calibration to run our Ron
Shaver 360 cu in/720 HP sprint car motor on Injected alcohol.

c) Now drill each intake runner on the Vic Edelbrock 4 barrel manifold, to point each
injector as close as possible to same location as a standard Hilborn Injector Manifold
that came with the Ron Shaver Motor, at the intake valves. You want the injectors to
point at the valves as close possible to the Hilborn injection setup that came with the Ron
Shaver 360 cubic inch racing motor.


3) Now, tap the holes and install the same injectors that came with the Ron Shaver Racing setup.

a) Run the same fuel pump, bypasses and pills that came with the Ron Shaver Motor. Just want to get
as close as possible to a standard Hilborn setup, but now with a "Okie" 4 barrel manifold with intake
runners drilled for 8 mechanical fuel injectors. The manifold is only used because it comes
closest to the air characeteristics needed by the Ron Shaver Racing Motor. Vic Edelbrock helped me
pick it out. And the Demon Carb Air Base/butterfiles control the exact amount of air need for this
particular/matching as close as possible racing situation/application for Ron's 360 cu inch motor.

4)) Bolt the lastest Nascar air cleaner to the gutted Demon Carburetor body.


5) Start the engine on a dyno and start dialing in the fuel injection system.

I would think this same strange stategy could be used on any motor with good results if you didn't
want to cast in a brand new mechanical fuel injection manifold for your particular motor. Just use
the closeset 4 barrel racing intake manifold and modify the flow characteristics/port the manifold as
necessary/required. Same with the matching racing 4 barrel carburetor for this manifold, only
using the body and butterflies and linkage. All the mechanical fuel injection parts would have
to come from another/similar motor that roughly matches the breathing and fuel requirements of your
motor.


Larry "O" laugh.gif , Let's go racing! ph34r.gif


All ready been done.................www.ronsfuel.com


#14
penrith 1

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Here is a V8 ....

http://tvnz.co.nz/mo...r-2446077/video

http://macgor.proboa...r...8425&page=1
www.myspace.com/thebigburger

#15
larryo

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Hey those are really kool videos. To the best of my knowledge there are no rules on engine displacement or dual overhead camshafts at the Chillibowl.

In this case it would be 4 overhead cams which I personally think is the most wonderful thing in this world.

In the early 70's I worked at British Motors of Monterey, Ca. I got to test/drive the serviced cars around a very large city block to the show room floor. The day before I almost totaled a 440 cubic inch, police interceptor motored Jensen Interceptor. I didn't tell anybody I almost crashed that car the day before.

The next day we just serviced a Aston Martin Lagonda. Even in those days almost 40 years ago, these cars had dual overhead cam V8, all aluminum engines and 4 weber carbs, and headers straight from factory/England. The bodies where hand pounded aluminum and the wheels were magnesium with magnesium lug nuts!

Nobody could figure out why I didn't want to drive this brand new car around the block to the show room floor. I just said I would rather not...lol!

Shortly after working there I secured another job at Honda of Monterey, Ca. We didn't sell cars but motorcycles. And the 6 clyinders CBX motorcycles just came out. 750 four dual overhead cam motor were common variety. We even had the Honda V-twin motors that sounded like a V8. A lot of people liked the KZ 500 triple, 3 cylinder, 2 cycle motors which we also sold.

I look forward to seeing the New Zeland motors run. Should be fun.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani








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