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Midget Set-Up / Scale Weights ?


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20 replies to this topic

#1
plgray

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Is my thinking correct in saying that the left side wheels carry the most weight ?
In example ..... 1) left rear carries the most weight , ... next , 2) left front is second heaviest ...
3) right rear would be next , and 4) the right front is the lightest corner. All agree ?

After shock and spring selection , the setting of tire pressures , ride height adjustments , etc. , my left front is always about 20 lbs. lighter than the right-rear. ( ? )

The car is always scaled , with the above result shown on the scale. However , the rear weight at 58% is good and the cross weight at 52% is good , yes ?

Assuming all of these thoughts are correct , how can we move 20 lbs. from the right-rear to the left front ?

Your thoughts , please !

Thanks,
PL GRAY / MIDGET #28

#2
wstealth20

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The best thing, if possible, is to contact the builder and see what they will tell you. I've only worked on a stealth before but got help when I called them. Just ask whatever comes to mind and don't act like you know everything. Usually they'll give you what baseline setup to use if you ask. You didn't say if this was dirt or pavement either. The type of suspension you have will make a difference also. We had coil front and bars in the rear. The suspension changes, or turns, work cross wise in a chassis. So if you want more left front put turns in the right rear until the right weight desired is met. Make sure you completely remove the weight off all the scales after making the changes and then put the car back onto them.

#3
Baue

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I agree. Call Mike Streicher at Hawk. He is a smart cat.

#4
larryo

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biggrin.gif I was wondering if I could ask some questions on this topic..LOL?????

1) If you screwed some turns in the LF woundn't that increase the wt on the Left Front?


2) If you "X" some wt into the LF/RR would that add some wt to the LF.


3) I was wondering if you could use a different offset wheel in the LF...ie... move it in a little.


4) I see this a lot in the 410 Sprints. Move the oil tank to the front/left of the engine.

a) My TQ has the oil tank there.

5) Would moving the LF torsion arm outward on the Axel, change wt?????

6) You could lighten or buy a lighter RR wheel, then put on a heavier LF wheel.

a) I know personally you can lighten up a Standard RR wheel. On a 40 lb wheel
combination you can easily take of 7-8 lbs off it. Then install a heavier front left
wheel.

cool.gif There are many components that can be lightend or bought on the RR side
of the car. Lighter arms, hollow/titanium bolts, carbon fiber panels, etc.
What wt you take off the RR then add heavier components to the LF, including
ballast wt. There has been at least one championship sprint car where I have
seen and everybody else, wt added to the lower, left/front lower frame rail.


Sincerely,

Larry Otani


P.S. (1) Nobody talking about this but I see these offset motor plates all the time for sale,
and moving the engine forward/left is not out of the question.

(2) I hear Kieth Kunz is a smart cookie. I might start there...lol!


#5
plgray

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Larry , Thank you for your input ... I was hoping that you would give your insight , etc.

You have consistantly demonstrated in these tech posts that you are willing to seek out the solutions , use logic , and propose some things that few others would think of. I have very much enjoyed reading your many posts and appreciate someone who will "look outside of the box" !

Back on subject ; Our car really doesn't have any room to remove weight.

To maintain the ride height setting , what is added to the left front ( as in spring adjustments ) , must be taken in an equal increment from the right rear.

We are satisified with our shock / spring selections for all four corners. The ride height is in keeping with the chassis builders specifications as this is important to maintain the center-of-gravity and roll-center as designed.

A heavier spring has not transferred the weight to the left front. What we have seen is an unfavorable change to percentage of rear weight ( we look for 58% ) , and the ever important cross weight , ideally at 52.00 % to 52.70 %.

Iam only looking for a solution ( to move 20 additional pounds to the left front ) because I know that the left front should be the second heaviest corner on the car , not the right rear.

Thanks ,
Paul

#6
larryo

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biggrin.gif Dear Paul,

Are we having fun yet? biggrin.gif Here are a couple other ideas.

1) Zero Motorsports has created a front hood that is unusal as can be! Maybe Zero
will post a picture of this famous midget hood. He says it works incredibly well on a dry slick
track.

a) It's basically a concave hood. Left side real high...up to the down tube on left side of the car and
slanting down about 18 inches to the midrail/mid height of the frame on the right side of the
car.

cool.gif This radical/spoiler like front hood may not give you the "static" wt you prefer, but
it sure goin' to transfer some wt to the LF "dynamically once the 'wind' hits it...LOL!

2) I was wondering if you can use the 'famous' Bud Kaeding type of radiator, that mounts
longitudinally on the LF frame rail instead of across the front of the chassis on a normal
sprint car or midget. This would definately add some LF wt with out subtracting overall wt.


3) Can you shave tire diameters to get the front a little lower, hopefully transferring wt from
back to front and depending on how you cut the diameters of the front tires transfer
wt from the RR to the LF.

a) I know in our TQ division the rule book states 10 inch wheels or 13 inch wheels, so you can
steal a lot of parts from the mini-sprints and use on the TQ if you wanted to change the
"rake" of the car for static wt distribution.

4) You say you can not shave wt, but you didn't really say if you minded adding wt.

Maybe some Tungsten inside the LF axel ( a little modification necessary...LOL) or LF frame tube
might help a bit. smile.gif

5) I was just wondering if a sway bar, front or rear or both could change the static wts you
see on those scales...LOL!

a) My buddy has gone from front and rear sway bars on his dirt sprint car, (Nance design)
to Front only sway bar, to now finally rear only sway bar. It's a 4 coil sprint car run
on dirt...LOL laugh.gif !

Sincerely,

Larry "O"....its been fun.

P.S. If you look at some of these Asphalt midgets or even some of the National Sprint car teams
on dirt, they have nose piece, which is basically a front spoiler as used on many cars during
the 70's, located under the front bumper. This will transfer some wt once the car gets up
to speed. 20 lbs "dynamically" ain't much.







#7
plgray

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Larry , you have truly missed your calling .... should have been a tech writer !

Ours is a HAWK Pavement Midget ; 4 coil-overs , front and rear sway bars , jacobs ladder , rear shocks mounted to the birdcages.

Changes to the hood would not be a feasible option ! LOL ( as you would say )...

I can get the weight moved but it requires a departure from the Hawk perscribed ride heights.

I seem to like the idea of using a different wheel off-set ( technically , is back-space ). I will look into this !

I'll get back to you on this , but appreciate your research and thought provoking ideas !

Paul

#8
ARE39

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Paul,
All I can say is don't be afraid to deviate from what Hawk suggests on ride-heights. That's exactly what those are, suggestions, since no two cars are exactly the same. If you feel the LF should be 20 lbs heavier, then make the adjustments to get that. The thing is, adjusting the cross is a band-aid fix....you're not actually 'fixing' the problem, just making it more manageable. The only way to get that 20 lbs you want on the LF is actually bolting weight there, or moving the tire in. It's gonna have to come WAY in though to get 20, and I bet you have a left-steer car which makes it tougher yet. Oh yeah, and 20 lbs is 2% of the total weight of the car, so it is kind of a big deal when it comes down to it, no matter if it's static or dynamic.
Thanks,
Chad

#9
larryo

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laugh.gif Boy we are having fun now....LOL!

After thinking about this for one more evening I came up with the following ideas.

1) I'm having trouble convincing anybody to bolt any weight up front. But how about
if it netted you a few extra HP!

a) One thing I never did on the FF Midget, but I was certainly thinking about it,
was bumping up the voltage on the starter/electrical system. After calling
my favorite electronics dealer he told me not to step it up more than 16 volts.

cool.gif After searching the internet I came across the perfect battery. It was a Coal Miners
battery. It was only 4 volts. 12 + 4 = 16 volts. Perfect!


c) If you wanted to install a littlier 12 volt battey plust the extra wt of the 4 Volt battery
located up front near the LF, you get a little wt bias plus more voltage/HP and the overall
wt of the two batteries equals the same original wt of the first battery, goin' with a lighter
12 volt battery to start off with.



2) So you don't like that idea, how much could you gain by a little lag of the LF axel?

a) Not much, but every little bit helps.


3) Let's steal some ideas from "Duran", that infamous midget builder.

Install the RF shock on the left side of the car, run a linkage connecting it to
to the right side of the axel/mount. I think he's doing something like that now
on the rear suspension, except he centers the shocks in the middle of the chassis
rather than biasing them to the left side of the car.


4) Now, let's go back 50 years. Remember that guy that had the "Darn Best Garage in Florida"?
Who was that guy? Remember the infamous 67 Chevelle that Nascar Banned? Man was he mad.


a) Well, remembering an article he wrote he gained extra fuel/volume by running a two inch
diameter fuel hose to the engine. Big diameter and extra wt. By routing an
overally large fuel hose and return you add wt to the LF if you plumbed it right.
Heck you could even relocate the fuel filter in that location. Just trying to add some
wt to one particular part of the car ingeniously and at the same time you don't need
to put as much fuel in the tank rolleyes.gif .


d) The same can be said about the oil hoses for the dry sump and the oil filter location.
Heck in the old days all Indy cars located the fluids in the nose of the car.

1) And you could run an accumulator, or even a radiator over fill in that location.


5) I will end this conversation with something I saw in the Early 70's. Went to go see
Don Garlitts, Don Prudolme and "Jungle Jim". I could not believe my eyes.
He was using the frame as a way of plumbing fluids. He was actually
draining fluids from the frame. I thought it was antifreeze.


Sincerely,


Larry "O" unsure.gif


P.S. Here is an idea I have never got to try. Who says the muffler needs to route backwards.
Why not routed it inverted, upside down and go forward. Exiting at the front. Front Wt
bias in this case. Sure would make people wonder...LOL!

I actually wanted to do this with a sprint car so I could tie left and right side banks
together (crossover) at the front of the car, then return with some short side pipes,
exits.

#10
plgray

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Ah , the mind of LarryO .... You've left me speechless !

Back on topic :

Some have reported that they would not know their individual corner weights because their cars are never scaled. That , for instance , their left-front might be carrying more weight than the right-rear ; it's something that is not checked or deemed important. ( they may check the left-rear in the pits with a "weight-checker" only).

The corner weights become an after-thought , meaning that from your basic set-up , including tire pressure and ride height , your shock and spring package , etc. , if it then drives to your liking - job accomplished !

Sounds pretty simple .... set-up time is minimal and no rocket science to complicate things.

Is this really the way to go ( ? )... I'm not convinced !

Paul

p.s. I appreciate everyone who has entered into this discussion and those who have sent private messages.

#11
zeromotorsports

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pic of hood larry-0 is speaking of
IPB Image

#12
plgray

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Very Cool !!!! Have never seen anything like it !

#13
Bluedresser

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Hate to say it, but that hood is uglier than dog crap Larry. Still and all if it works I guess it's fine as I'm almost used to the "door jamb" looking front ends on the newer cars. As far as the large fuel line is concerned, you have to remember that the way Smokey was found out was that he was getting more laps than the other guys because of the fuel the large fuel lines could hold. As NASCAR only regulated the capacity of the fuel tanks, once they found out about the size of the fuel lines that he used, they wrote a new rule. The next race he ended up going just as many laps as he had before, and upon checking, NASCAR found out that he had a fuel line that wrapped back and forth under the car and was about 100 feet long, resulting in just as much fuel. Yeah, in the long run he also added the weight where it did a lot of good, but his main purpose was to cut down on fuel stops. That's why HASCAR began calling their rule book the Smoky Yunick rule book. If you want more into about some of his many ideas, talk to Jerry Karl who's still in the race car equipment business in PA and who drove for Smoky and Indy. AND THINK ABOUT THIS - Smokey never graduated from high school. God Bless Larry. Will see you at Ventura if you stop by.

#14
larryo

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biggrin.gif aaaaahhhhh bench racing..I love it...LOL!

Paul poses an interesing question.

1) Let's take a quote from Smokey...LOL!

I really believe he had more than a high school education. He has been quoted as saying
he had taken two years of college, which by my standards is all you need.

He believed in chemistry, math and physics and he encouraged "ALL" to get as much education
as they could.

He flew in the war, so aerodynamics was key in anything he did including racing/Daytona and Indy.

2) I feel engineering get's you in the ball park, but you still need a racer to tell you what to do.
The racer has the experiece and can tell you what will work and what won't.

a) I read a book on the GT-40. I think it was SAE or some technical papers. The engineers
developed a beautiful baseline car. AJ Foyt, Dan Gurney and few others ripped
out all the ducting , changed a few things, and got that car to really go...LOL?

1) First time an American Mfg, beat out Ferrari. Now, how sweet is that? Hallelujah!! Sweet
Land of Dixie...lol!


3) One of the reasons I scale a car or want to is so that I'm not to light when you come into tech.
How would you like to come into tech, get on the scales only to find out you were too light?

1) We come close and others have been DQ'd.

2) Top that off with a driver that insists the car be as light as possible. There are very few
things I can do. But I know know much fuel weighs and how much we used...LOL!

4) I was once told by a brilliant man, that I use my education only because I have it.
He didn't have it, got along fine without it and didn't need it lol! Now, isn't that the truth.


5) I live in a world, where I can't tell somebody what I feel. I got to prove it. Math and science
it the universal lanquage used all around the world. When you put something down with
pen and paper, everything becomes plain as day or just the opposite. What the heck
you talking about? That ain't right.


6) So to put it in a nut shell, if it works for you, fine. If not you can get along without it.


Sincerely,

Larry "O" laugh.gif


P.S. I loved the one where "Smokey" put on extra large fuel tanks. Then put a bag in the tank.
Filled it with air to take up some of the space. He went to tech and they filled it. It met
the MAX volume. Later he deflated the bag, put in the extra fuel and laughed all the
way to the bank. Now, he's my hero...lol! Yankee Doodle Dandy.

Bluedresser I will look for you if I'm helping Bob. unsure.gif

#15
plgray

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Here's a little Bench Racing for you , LarryO .... Your remembrances of Smokey are mostly the legendary innovative stuff. Mine are somewhat different.

I attended my first Indianapolis 500 , in 1973. ( the worst year in history ; 3 days of rain and the resulting race tragedy ).

On the eve of the race , about 9:00pm , I walked into the lobby of the Speedway Motel , ( now the Brickyard Crossing Hotel & Golf Resort ).

Standing near the center of the lobby and with few other people nearby , I spotted the black hat. Yes , it was the man himself , Smokey Yunick. And he was engaged in conversation with Jackie Stewart !
I have never been an autograph seeker. I was always satisified just to meet someone that I admired. But this opportunity was too good to be true ! I walked up , stood politely near-by , and Jackie turned and said "How are you ?". Both signed the race program that I had earlier purchased that evening !

When leaving shortly thereafter , and as I was opening the door , I was startled once again as I found myself opening the door for Mr. Carroll Shelby ! I watched as Carroll walked over and put his arm over the shoulder of Smokey , something was said and all had a great laugh.

True story.

Paul





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